I decided to post in Conservative Club, making it Topic #667 in here:-) Anyway, I saw a report on progress in Iraq this morning.. and i thought: let's put aside any other reasons for invading iraq (oil, shmoil, or whatever). let's assume the guy really, I mean, REALLY wanted to make a difference, truly believing in American ideals, iraqis actually wanting to change their own country... So the dude thought it would be fast, quick, minimum causalties, better yet, none...... and then.... SHIT HAPPENED. His entire country turned against him, against their COMMANDER IN CHIEF. I dunno, guys, but being in that situation must suck big time. I mean, you are trying to make a real difference, believing in your people, and whoever else - God, for example - and it all crumbles. this morning I sympathize with our President. What about you? any sympathy at all?

Hell ya, I sympathize. CEO's, Presidents, the Great Thinkers are all idealists. You set the course and hope for the best. In the end, you rely on the people in the trenches to actually make it happen. I don't think there was anything wrong with his ideals. The execution was flawed. Imagine if democracy had taken hold. Imagine if there hadn't been a complete socio-econimic breakdown.... There's lots you could have imagined...I suppose you could throw Yeltsin in that category? And then Putin came in and cleaned up the mess? (lol...not that I would really know...Russian politics is my weak spot in this forum) "Hopeless in Atlanta"

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."

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Originally posted by James Bond: And then Putin came in and cleaned up the mess?

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it damn looks like that's the only way russians know how to clean up mess. with a fist (did i spell that right?) i guess they like the job to be done quickly and effectively:-)

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Originally posted by pomidorchik: What about you? any sympathy at all?

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Sort of. Not really. No other job has that kind of room for incompetence, mistakes, and poor judgement. Any one of you would have been fired. Or, if self-employed - bankrupt. I have sympathy for approximately a million lives directly or indirectly lost because of him. ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

no sympathy for Him as far as that goes whatsoever... the guy dug his own hole ... too bad there is no "Malpractice Insurance" in his line of work though..

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Originally posted by ribelk: no sympathy for Him as far as that goes whatsoever... the guy dug his own hole ... too bad there is no "Malpractice Insurance" in his line of work though..

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I guess I sometimes convince myself to feel sorry for him a little.. Don;t know why the fuck I do it. The cure is to listen to him speak. Stll arrogant. Still mislead. And getting dumber by the day. I defended him for a long time. I knew his intentions were idiotic, but targeted (in his mind) towards the good of the country. And I was hoping he would get lucky in Iraq. Even though I knew. This isn't rocket science. One last excuse he could have going for him - he is so dumb, that other interests used him as a pawn. That's the best thing I can find in my heart to say about the guy right now. P.S. another edit.. I also want to add that American voters are accountable for all of it. ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Uh... Pom.... Well.... You sure couldn't like... run our foreign policy or anything. And I could vote for you for like.... dogcatcher or something... : ) Always judge others by the same standards as you would want them to judge you

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Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you

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Originally posted by pomidorchik: 1. unbelievable that in the 21st century a single person can, by law!!!, sent 200,000 other human beings into battle, can caus millions to die, and in spite of that, have guaranteed pension, retirement, etc.....

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I personally got no problem with that. Just always assumed that democracy keeps that ability from being abused. I was wrong. Overestimated the American public.

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Originally posted by pomidorchik: 2. But that seems as a necessity because: more than half of this world is so backwards in terms of civilization and progress, that that's the only way to survive in it and prosper..

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Don't really get that argument. Plenty of developed countries hate us too. Logic would indicate that the US has to be able to function in the same environment, in which it rose to power. And the majority of the world that is "backwards" is not a variable in that equation, unless we make it a variable. And now we have.

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Originally posted by pomidorchik: in other words, if prosperity were more or less evenly distributed amonth 6 billion people, no need would exist for going to any war.

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KGBman often makes a good point here.. If this was the case, we would have to fight for the resources. That's all ahead. What we have now is child's play.

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Originally posted by pomidorchik: 3. in a long run, it would benefit the US to make sure that EVERY country is happy...or at least, 51% of countries are happy:-)

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What do you mean by happy? Is Iraq happy? Was Iraq happy before? Is even the US happy? who the hell knows.

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Originally posted by pomidorchik: How? Dump Darwin, accept Jesus in foreign politics (after having bombed the shit out of everybody who disagrees, of course. Say, similar to what the allies did to Japan and Germany --- best friends now.....:-) Makes sense?

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no. But I now see why you feel sorry for him. I just realized you and Bush have a similarity. The ability to selectively use limited information to make unlimited conclusions. You do this almost in every topic! He does it on every issue. It's called inductive reasoning. And that's the polite name for it. Aren't you a math/science guy? ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Voting for G. Bush Jr. will go down in my life as probobly the worst vote I cast for President of this country. But I couldn't vote for that turncoat Kerry. Shoulda voted Libertarian or something. I'll look harder at third party candidates in the future though.... Always judge others by the same standards as you would want them to judge you

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Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you

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Originally posted by mkgilstrap: Voting for G. Bush Jr. will go down in my life as probobly the worst vote I cast for President of this ocuntry. But I couldn't vote for that turncoat Kerry. Shoulda voted Libertarian or something. I'll look harder at third party candidates in the future though.... Always judge others by the same standards as you would want them to judge you

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I did not vote at all. I actually had a little "do not vote" campaign going on on this forum. So I am accountable too. Of course if I voted for Kerry, or Gore, and they won, i would have been accountable for other stuff of unknown proportions. This time, I will register as a democrat and vote for Biden in the primaries. When he loses, I am probably going to have to go with a republican.. lord help us all. ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

What American President hasn't come off as stupid in the last 25 years? Carter? Peanut farmer. book smart but Iran stupid Reagan? - actor turned politician. The liberals called him stupid. On my college campus they always showed Reagan with some stupid monkey he acted with in the movies. Bush Sr.? Seemingly smart - but not smart enough to get re-elected...he never extricated us from the first Iraq war..."W" needed to fix that mess anyway. Clinton? I did vote for him twice....I hate Hillary. After 9/11 I wanted something done. The current mess is all part of the 'something'. Every day we have to hear CNN talk about the people dying. It wears on you. I remind myself that on June 6, 1944 - 9,000 soldiers died in one day (9/11 + 7 years of war ain't there yet). Confronting international terrorism head-on, and nation-building in Iraq and Afghanistan ain't easy - for any President. "Hopeless in Atlanta"

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."

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Originally posted by James Bond: What American President hasn't come off as stupid in the last 25 years?

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Relatively speaking, no one. Yes, someone will say every president is dumb. That's why we have to discriminate. :)

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Originally posted by James Bond: Carter? Peanut farmer. book smart but Iran stupid

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Mistakes do not make a president stupid. I wouldn't dream of defending Carter, he has sealed his fate by lack of results. I would define him the way you described Bush in your first post in this topic. But Bush has not even earned that sympathy. What they have in common (and with you by the way) is reliance on doing something is better than nothing, and shooting for the "what if".

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Originally posted by James Bond: Reagan? - actor turned politician. The liberals called him stupid. On my college campus they always showed Reagan with some stupid monkey he acted with in the movies.

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I think he had a well-hidden intellect. He is slightly overrated, and for that reason, not credited with the problems he caused. But look at what he did for the status of the country. And look what Bush did.

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Originally posted by James Bond: Bush Sr.? Seemingly smart - but not smart enough to get re-elected...he never extricated us from the first Iraq war..."W" needed to fix that mess anyway.

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Smart enough not to occupy Iraq And losing elections is actually becoming more and more of a compliment to one's intellect. Haven't you noticed?

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Originally posted by James Bond: Clinton? I did vote for him twice....I hate Hillary.

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Double Bush's IQ. At least

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Originally posted by James Bond: After 9/11 I wanted something done. The current mess is all part of the 'something'. Every day we have to hear CNN talk about the people dying. It wears on you. I remind myself that on June 6, 1944 - 9,000 soldiers died in one day (9/11 + 7 years of war ain't there yet). Confronting international terrorism head-on, and nation-building in Iraq and Afghanistan ain't easy - for any President.

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Perhaps you have stumbled upon the root of all our problems... Can't think this way. Or it will get much, much worse. ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

It's the Stick-and-the Carrot. People, and nations, respond best when praised for positive behavior, and beaten like hell for negative behavior. Now this is an over-generalization, but during Democratic times (Clinton), we were the carrot....popular, like a drunk high school girl on prom night. And when taked advantage of (attacks against us during Clinton) we simply got our rocks off (fired a few rockets into worthless targets). Is that how a Superpower is supposed to act? Yes, when a Clinton (Democrat) is President. Republicans are the War Hawks. Man, do you think the Muslim world thought they were gonna get their ass whooped like this? Do I feel bad for the Iraqi's? YES! Do I think other countries in the Arab world are saying 'I don't want that shit to happen to me?' ....very likely. when you piss off the USA, you are gonna get a serious ass-kicking. That is the 'stick'. Yeah, everybody hates us. But when our presence diminishes, and we are all nicey-nice again...yeah, we will just be the usaual Hollywood fodder on the front page of every other countries newspaper. What we have done is the right thing. We got a black eye on 9/11. We kicked some ass. I'm not saying we won't get hit again. I'm just saying - everybody knows next time you f*ck with us you will get hit even harder. This is all a warning shot on all sides. We are still the 800 pound guerilla. Make us MAD enough and we can get really really ugly. "Hopeless in Atlanta"

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."

James, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one. I'm gonna compare terrorism to a bad case of Acne. When Clinton was in office, he used Aloe Vera and other topical and internal means to treat the Acne, he soothed it and it didn't break out too bad on his ass (Oops I meant face). Yes the Muslim world still hated us, I mean think of the wars we have commited against them for the last 100 years, but at least they were more content to deal with Isreial, they had to look hard for recruits. Now, take Bush, he comes into office and he says, ohhhhhhh terrorists, well I know just the thing to do with terrorists...! and like a big Cysts he squeezes the hell out of it, making it 20 times worse and turning into a permanent scare. Then comes 9/11 and not just content with Screwing up is own ass (I mean face) he picks at every little black head and red spot on his face until everything looks like a big pile of toxic goo. Now Osama and every other terrorist have more recruits than they know what to do with due to all the bomb The U.S. and terrorists blew up over there. The problem is that the Terrorists were not bombing Iraq until the U.S. broke international law to chase after a LIE. YES A BIG FAT LIE. Despite the rest of the world saying NO your going to screw everything up, we being the war lovers that helped America Destroy one race and enslave another, decided to beleive a man who has one of the most corrupted and messed up backgrounds in U.S. History. So let's, instead off alienating the acne, start treating again internally and topically. this translated to dropping bread not bombs, actually putting some money into thier economy not our military. If we had done that before things would have been defferient. War always makes the situation worse, unless of course we just kill them all. Then we would be just like Hitler, but hey, who needs a good looking face right?

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Originally posted by James Bond: It's the Stick-and-the Carrot. People, and nations, respond best when praised for positive behavior, and beaten like hell for negative behavior. Now this is an over-generalization, but during Democratic times (Clinton), we were the carrot....popular, like a drunk high school girl on prom night. And when taked advantage of (attacks against us during Clinton) we simply got our rocks off (fired a few rockets into worthless targets). Is that how a Superpower is supposed to act? Yes, when a Clinton (Democrat) is President.

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If Clinton had 9/11 in his mandate, he would have done more. I believe he did the most that "hawk republicans" and American people would have allowed him, and then some. Hawk republicans, whose nominee, the subject of this topic, said in the debates he was against nationbuilding. Turns out the consensus was - Clinton did too much. Forgot those debates? Not a problem look at what Bush did, what initiatives he took on this issue when he took over, and how he reacted to scary stories from the CIA in the spring and summer of 2001. We have very short memories. Yet very sharp, and clear hindsight.

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Originally posted by James Bond: Man, do you think the Muslim world thought they were gonna get their ass whooped like this?

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Not in their wildest dreams.. I think it is a mistake to assume that the current situation is in some way unfavorable to them. This is what they have dreamed about, and the continuation of it is what they dream about now. As far as the former moderate Muslim majority, you are right. This desimated their numbers. The only realistic hope of fighting terrorism at the source was moderate movements in the arab street. We've reversed that movement for now. We had it in Iran, we had it in Iraq. Jordan, Egypt, etc, etc, the young people, students, the educated, were all an embryo of change. They are now lost forever. Hope we'll try again with their kids. Only 30 years lost. 60, if we let those kids grow up under current US foreign policy. I do not even believe that's doable. The American society is way too soft for these kinds timelines and sacrifices. Each one of us values our lives and families above all.

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Originally posted by James Bond: Do I feel bad for the Iraqi's? YES! Do I think other countries in the Arab world are saying 'I don't want that shit to happen to me?' ....very likely. when you piss off the USA, you are gonna get a serious ass-kicking.

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This is a very good point, i've mentioned here before that this is by far the most important positive in the Bush policy. Arguably it, alone, disarmed Lybia :) But, my god, the side effects... Lybia seems to be the only one that misunderstood. Everyone else began to arm themselves aggressively in anticipation of what the propaganda machine will tell US electorate is "evil" and what creature we will elect next.

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Originally posted by James Bond: That is the 'stick'. Yeah, everybody hates us.

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In the era of weapons of mass destruction, that status is not a desirable cost for any possible gain. Not to mention that the only gain, is satisfying our own emotions. Emotions which are a predictable consequence of 9/11, and I would say, exactly what was desired by its masterminds. ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher