BS, I may not be doing alright, YOU may not be doing alright, but tons of people are doing fine! I see them everyday, I drink regularly with a few. You can ask around on this forum.

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Jedem Das Seine.

The point is, they -=think=- they are doing alright. They are blissfully unaware of the whole situation.

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Sic semper tyrannis
~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

It is so Russian of you to presume that you KNOW what's right and other just THINK that they do... As a progressive enlightened bureaucrat,  I reject this type of thinking on principle.

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Jedem Das Seine.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see just how the general American public is ignorant...

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Sic semper tyrannis
~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

mkgilstrap:

You should have added a few more observations to your agrandizement of socialism.  Such As:

with socialism, there is no opportunity, hence no motivation

that is simply not true. Even in Soviet Union there were opportunities and motivation.

Yes, they were mostly not in monetary sense, so it is hard for americans to understand ;) 

 

with socialism, you have no chance ever to improve your class designation

now that is a total and blatant LIE !!

1. There was no class designation.

2. With free World Class education anyone had opportunity to improve their life.

3. It is in the US majority of people have no chance at all for advancement or change of social status. 

 

with socialism, innovation is all but dead

that is not true. Innovation exist. In our reality, because west organized the Cold War and refused to cooperate with USSR, we had to concentrate innovation in the military sector. 
But innovation was always there.

 

I contend, especially with limited resources, human motivation must be encouraged and therefore, socialism is a death trap which will collapse upon itself as soon as you run out of other peoples money.

that just shows that you have no idea how current economic model works ;)

 

 

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

I don't see any point explaining this stuff. It's like you are striving to improve someone else's knowledge. It's one thing when someone is genuinely interested and you see a potential payback from having another educated individual, but when someone keeps rejecting the common sense knowledge given to them, and keeps crawling back under the rock of ignorance, what's the point? Like I said many times, let ignorant stay ignorant. It's their problem.

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Sic semper tyrannis
~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

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Sic semper tyrannis
~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

Now that the true colors of the wall street occupation movement have been seen on national television, all I can say is "I told you so".  Anarchists and revolutionaries.

You see, being much older than some of those here, I can remember the first youth movement that occurred during the Vietnam War,  The scenes here are very similar,  Then, in 1968, the protesters were protesting the "establishment".  They marched, peacefully at first, then violently, forcing confrontations with police by their "civil disobedience"  and of course, forcing the police to arrest them in front of the cameras so the could get publicity for their "cause".  Then saying how "brutal" the police are and how they represent the "establishment".  We are seeing the same scenes played out yet again in 2011 in our living rooms, with the added "live streaming" of the digital age.  Yet the methods and the mechanics of revolution and anarchy remain the same.

They promise some sort of redistribution of income scheme if we elect, (or leave) them in power.  This is not true, if as a nation, we are ever so foolish to elect such an ignorant mass into power, the wealth will never be "distributed" equally in the new Utopia they promise.  You will have to be a Democratic Party member to benefit.  You Russians here should know that, coming from the age where party membership in the Communist Party was required for almost anything of value in the Old Soviet Union.  What they really want is a "new aristocracy" centered around people who are of like mind, socialist or communist.  The rest of us will end up in "reeducation camps" just like the Old Soviet Union used to do, or worse.  Those of us who disagree will be labeled "ignorant" and "simplistic" by those whose arrogance assumes they know what is really important and necessary for the rest of us. 

Truly, Anton, you fit this category.  You comments about those of us who have different ideas about individual responsibility show that you don't have much real life experience.  Individuals here in the US are free to succeed or fail, there is no guarantee.  My advice to those who want to get wealthy and live a better life is to get a better education and work harder.  No guarantee, but the odds are pretty good you will at least be middle class.  Class Warfare won't make anyone permanently wealthy.  Even if all the wealth of the "rich" is confiscated, What about next year, or the next, when there are no more "rich" people to rape and steal from?  You can't cure lazy and stupid with free money.  Education and motivation is the real answer.  It is real simple to whine and march in the streets and demand more "benefits" (aka money).  But this money comes from real people who work hard.  What happens if they take their ball and bat and go home with their money?  Perhaps to another, more friendly country?  They are certainly free to do this.  And, oops, there goes your job and a lot of others. 

I have patiently explained before, if a government makes the return on risk of investing capital into the business world the same or less than leaving your money in bonds, stocks, or cd's, then the wealthy will not invest their money in risky start up businesses, which is where job growth comes from.  The return on investment in capital in a business must remain much more than the more safe avenue, around 15-20%, which is 4-5 times more than one can get sitting on their butts drinking a martini, before a wealthy person is willing to take the risk with their money by investing in a new business.  You would do the same, everyone would.  Quit bashing the wealthy,  most of us owe every job we ever had to a wealthy person who risked their money in a business venture and gave me a job.  .

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Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you

Anton, I agree with you more than you will listen to me say.  I also think big business has way too much influence in Congress.  However, the Supreme court has ruled consistently that these "campaign contributions are a form of free speech.  While I agree with the principal, I also would endorse public financing of campaigns.  However finding a happy middle from the very people who benefit from said "contributions" is going to be difficule.  Yet we all do have the "vote".  Let's go use it every time we can to demand a better government, both Republican and Democrat.

And Anton, it isn't only the Republicans who take money from "big business":.  Obama took more money from Wall Street than McCain did.  Look up this inconvenient fact if you want.  All are guilty.  Quit reading off the Democratic talking points memo and realize we Americans are only getting the quality of government we demand, and we aren't demanding much as a group, cause too many are beginning to benefit from their share of the big, fat pie.  Hence, the republican call for a smaller, leaner government with less entitlement. (not saying they succeeded)  It's the Democrats who want to expand government and make everyone dependent on it.  Another inconvenient fact.

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Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you

mkgilstrap,

Back in Spring of 2009 you started a number of discussions on this forum:  I become a casualty of the recession, Economic Panic in Dalton, etc.

Back then your business was facing bankrupcy and you were deeply concerned about your financial situation and business in Dalton area in general.   I don't recall a single person lecturing you on individual responcibility, how everything is your own fault, etc. 

The main difference between you back then and the occupiers of today is that they are protesting on the streets rather then just on this forum as you did.  They understandably feel that there are fewer and fewer opportunities available to them in life and they are being left behind. 

I do think that they are wrong to engage with the police.  Policemen feel the full burden of state-level budget cuts, they are not the enemy.  In Gwinnett county police are not paid overtime and not paid when they have to go to court.  Holding rallies like the Tea Party did would be much more civil and at the end more effective in promoting their cause(s) then the occupations. 

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Sasha

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Too many people debate as if the point is to show who is smarter, rather than which conclusion is correct.

mkgilstrap, and just where might these venerable individuals who are paying for everything go? Which other country? So far they move production to places where government is providing more services, not less. Where will they take their wealthy butts? Which country will treat them better and make them pay less in taxes than the United States?

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Jedem Das Seine.

Gtsasha,

My comments weren't meant to attack or upset anyone.  I have always looked to my own individual talents and resources to better myself.  I feel this is the best way to make yourself a better life.  Nobody really will look after yourself better than you. 

The reference you make to the post I made in 2009 deserves a sequel.   In Dalton, the unemployment rate remains the highest in the state, almost 13%.    Correspondingly, my business is now less than half the size it used to be.  The trials and tribulations I went through from the spring of 2008 to the spring of 2010 will long be remembered by me.  During that time, I took a 75% pay reduction, had to let go 8 of my 15 employees, closed my warehousing operation, and most importantly, worked out a payment arrangement with my creditors which they accepted, and I was able to pay off the $300,000 debt my company owed over a period of time, all without having to close and declare bankruptcy.  I am sorry I did not share this sequel with my friends here on this forum, you deserved to know the rest of the story.  It was strictly an oversight on my part.  Today, though my business is much smaller, I am debt free and working on an ongoing cash basis.  My income is still much lower, but if the economy in our valley ever improves, I am now in a good position to benefit from that growth.

I totally agree with you that more and more, there are fewer opportunities out there for the average guy.  Many people have done everything they feel is necessary to succeed, but come to this time only to have no chance at middle or upper class.  This situation is more economic than personal, and history has shown that it will change.  I feel that part of the reason for their feeling that they are being "left behind" however, may be due to the false expectations they may have about what it takes to really provide for themselves as well as the economic side of things..  Maybe I am showing my age, but in my younger days, I was willing to do anything to feed myself.  I have cooked pizza, cleaned tables and bathrooms, etc...  it hasn't been a bed of roses.  I bet many here have similar stories to tell.  I contend that many of the protesters are not used to accepting the fact that they may have to start at the very bottom in a bad economy and wait it out for a better day.  For example, Georgia was 12,000 workers short, and advertised for workers, to work the fields during the harvest in south Georgia this year, yet had almost no takers.  This example shows that many people are simply not willing to do anything to feed themselves and have expectations that may exceed economic conditions.  This example is not meant to include everyone, there are many who do not fit this model and are in fact locked out of better opportunity due to other reasons.  I am talking only in general.

There are many things that should be done.  I don't believe CEO's of major corporations should earn such a higher percentage than the work force of that corporation.  I don't believe in "golden parachute" retirement plans.  I am more convinced than ever that the stock market is being manipulated by larger powers and the average small investor is being screwed.  I believe in the small community bank, not the multinational ones.  These things should be changed.  But I am categorically not for throwing the baby out with the bath water as the wall street occupiers suggest.  They are really advocating a fundemental change in the economic system of the US to either socialism, or communism.  I think the average occupier may not even know this, listening to them talk on the news channels.  For reference, I watch CNN and Fox, sometimes MSNBC when I want a good laugh.

Mainly, at no time did I intend to lecture on individual responsibility, but when someone wants in my pocket to take more of my money, I am gonna ask why he wants it and what he wants to use it for.

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Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you

Very good and sincere post, Mkgilstrap! Makes your position much clearer. As Anton begins climbing the crazy ladder, you start sound more and more reasonable :-)

There is obviously a number of issues where you and the most hardened socialist will find agreement. Without either of your losing your natural colors. 

If you see great power manipulating the stock market, do you see some other powers manipulating discourse in this country? I'd like more discussion on banks being too large to manage and income gap growing too large. Without "ideological warfare" and poisonous words such as "socialist" being used by the Right. Do you think this will happen?

As far as unrealistic expectations, you need to but turn on your TV and watch some commercials. Marketing is all about creating expectations. They are connected to reality only insofar as it is legally required. Why such a surprise if people internalize those and complain when they are not being met?

Mine certainly weren't! I was promised a glowing career in the public sector. I see the same bs being pushed on perspective students - good jobs, security, exciting career choice... it's only a lie when the teller is not trying to sell you anything, otherwise, it's marketing! 

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Jedem Das Seine.

Thanks, Orkster  ....   gosh...

I have tried in vain to explain to Anton that we agree more than he will admit.  He sees me as such an ignorant, unrefined person.....  

Yes, I do see other powers manipulating this country.  I will give examples:

Why is putting a tariff on imports off limits?   This is surely the quickest way to create american jobs and pay the chinese back with their own money.  IMHO  I believe too many people are making way too much money producing products using the cheap labor from East Asia, which they then use part of to buy influence in Washington, to propose this solution.  They all say our exports will suffer or there will be a trade war.  We are currently running a 300 billion per year trade DEFICIT with China, so how exactly will it hurt us?

Why will no one allow development of US energy resources so we can rid ourselves of OPEC and 4 dollar a gallon gas?  Do you have any idea how many US jobs, good jobs which pay lots of money, would be created if we just let our resources be developed?  My Goodness, the recession would be over in a year.  Why can this not be done?   Who exactly is blocking this?   Let's find 'em and fire their a##. 

Why are laws limiting lobbyists access and influence always either ignored or buried in some committee?  This one is simple,  those who benefit the most from lobbyist influence are the very ones who vote to end the influence. 

Why do most of the media report the most silly and mundane things instead of real news?  This one is deep and reflects that both sides of our political discourse control their respective news outlets, so only rarely does a little real news reaches the american public. We as citizens have to work harder than ever to stay even a little informed.

Why does the US only have a national election in one day for 12 hours during the work week?  Who decided that?   This one stinks to high heaven of manipulation by the national political parties to limit the number of americans who have the opportunity to go vote, in order to manipulate that vote in their favor.  We should be having 2 day elections on a weekend, Saturday and Sunday for 12 hours per day, so that the MAXIMUM number of Americans can participate and the true feelings of America can be represented.  We have a huge silent majority out there who don't  or can't participate.

These, Orkster, are just a few of the things I wonder.

I agree with you totally about raised expectations.  These kids were led to expect everything after graduation, only to find a trashed out economy and a shrinking middle class.  But a little hard work at Wendy's or picking onions in a south georgia field will build good character, as long as it's only for a while.  It's not great but it will feed a person.  The economy will turn around one day soon.  and all this will be a distant memory in a few years.  God I hope so.

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Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you

So you are not afraid that the country will vote to soak the rich and give everything to the poor if more people are allowed to vote? I hear voices that it is increased voting power of the poor that is advancing income redistribution and eventual failure of America as a country.

 

As far as developing domestic energy, I read in several professional publications that from business point of view it makes more sense to keep the domestic fields undeveloped. Government distributes grants and licenses production but it's sometimes better to sit on known reserves. Sort of "equity" which can be used to finance projects as needed. What will you say if a company acquires license but chooses not to drill? Should government tell big companies how to run their business?

 

Direct tariffs on anything are not on the table. This is a tool that has been used in the past but is currently out of fashion. Free trade is the only game in town, so don't even mention restricting it.

 

And fundamentally speaking, you sure sound like a socialist with all these ideas... more democracy, more transparency in politics, limit the influence of wealth on policy... It's like they always say, you can take a man out of USSR but you can't take USSR out of a man. Even KGBman should be smiling at your notions.

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Jedem Das Seine.