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Ну вот и всё, а ты боялась. Только обочка помялась!

 

России хорошо. Цели её руководителей достигнуты. Реформы кадровые, армейские и пенсионные можно отложить, обстановка не та, на переправе лошадей не меняют. У власти остаются силовики, тот-же Путин всем снова рулит, какую роль играл Медведев мы все видели... О расширении НАТО речи теперь речи быть не может, конфликтные страны туда не берут. Спасающая внутренние российские порядки международная изоляция теперь мало того что будет, так она еще и оправдана перед российским народом. Окружающим недогосударствам показана кузькина мать. Всё как нельзя лучше для тех кто в России правит. Кто теперь будет вспоминать об инвестициях в регионы, инфляции превышающей прогнозы и ценах на хавку... маленькая победоносная война: Политикам -- электорат возбужден и к сношениям с властью готов! Военным -- звездочки на погоны, и бабло на восстановление. Блин ну куда уж лучше!

 

И Грузии не плохо. Перед лицом мира она теперь жертва, мировое сочуствие за ней. И бабло от мирового сообщества на подьем экономики теперь будет с более низкими процентами. В члентсве в НАТО всё равно отказано, так зато современное оружие и военспецы теперь точно будут. Внешнеполитический курс страны окончательно определен на независимость от России. Оппозицию теперь и давить не надо, сама рассосётся. Осетия и Абхазия всё равно были де-факто потеряны для Грузии -- чего не имели того и не приобрели, не особо и жалко. И электорат возбужден и готов! Надо только сделать строгое и непримиримое лицо – мы не сдались и не сдадимся!

 

Но в дальнем плане Россия от этой войны сильно проиграла. Сделала шаг в себя.

 

А что людей постреляли, так в той часте мира их никогда особо не жалели...

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Jedem Das Seine.

Г-н Buchenwald забыл порассказать нам какую выгоду получила Америка.

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И в самом деле забыл...

 

я как-то если честно об этом не задумывался еще, и ничего пока об этом не читал. Ну кроме конечно воплей о том что всё в мире подстроено США против России...

 

В этом вопросе склонен согласиться с KGBman, он недавно выставлял статью где было сказано что нам в этом регионе выгодня мир и процветание. Грузия конечно наш союзник, но у нас союзников таких хоть жопой ешь! Каждый хочет быть другом сильного и богатого. Врядле было разумно ждать от США  чего-то большего чем слова поддержки.

 

Своим друзьям мы традиционно помогаем технологиями. Военным – военными (военспецы, оружие), администраторам – экономическими (рисёрч, кредиты), политикам – личным примером как следует себя вести. Но наши друзья традиционно пользовались нашими подарками для своих целей. Вспомним тех-же талибов. Думаю тут такая-же тема. Но как я уже сказал, ничего пока об этом разумного не читал и не видел.

 Тайно конечно наверняка грузинам прибудет и баблос и оружие и спецы... ну не учим мы уроков истории...
 

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Jedem Das Seine.

Читала пост Оркстера и не могла не обратить внимание на его многоразовое использование местоимения "наша" в сочетании со словом Америка. Интересно. Я в этой стране не родилась, живу достаточно долго, но почему-то меня ни разу не пробивало на подобные словосочетания. А у кого какие мысли/чувства по этому поводу?

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"Some say the Muses are nine: how careless! Look, there's Sappho too, from Lesbos, the tenth." Plato

Я с Вами, не моё всё это, не моё.

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Да, часто и не моё тоже. Но я в этой стране образован и живу, не могу не признать что США сильно повлияли на формирование моего сознания. Я недавно подумал вот как на эту тему. Интерестно ваше мнение. Та сторона в конфликте что вызывает с моей стороны сочуствие и понимание, всякие позитивные эмоции, или хотя-бы просто трогает на нерациональном уровне, то та наверное и есть на самом деле "моя". Потому что по национальному признаку я вообще хрен знает кто. Может русский? Может украинец или еврей? Как-то я себя пост-национально чуствую, не готов ни одному государству кланятся и верить на слово без разумных на то причин.

А в постах своих я на самом деле часто заменяю "американская сторона" на "наша сторона". Это щоб без претензии на истину в последней инстанции выходило. Показываю свои баясы. Наверное я всё-же американец ;-)

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Jedem Das Seine.

Я тоже себя потерянным чувствую иногда, синдром перемещённого лица.

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Интервью Киселева

http://www.glavred.info/print.php?article=/archive/2008/08/13/180259-5.html

 

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Now we know who's calling the shots:

At the State Department in Washington, Mr. Fried, the top envoy for the region, received a phone call on Thursday from Georgia’s foreign minister, Eka Tkeshelashvili, who said the country was under attack. The foreign minister said Georgia had to protect its people.

“We told them they had to keep their unilateral cease-fire,” the official said. “We said, ‘Be smart about this, don’t go in and don’t fall for the Russian provocation. Do not do this.’ ”

Around the same time, members of the Georgia army unit assigned to a training program under American advisers did not show up for the day’s exercises. In retrospect, American officials said, it is obvious that they had been ordered to mobilize for the mission in South Ossetia by their commanders.

“This caught us totally by surprise,” said one military officer who tracks events in the region, including the American-Georgian training effort. “It really knocked us off our chairs.”

Ms. Rice did not get on the phone with her Georgian counterpart on Thursday, but left it to Mr. Fried to deliver the “don’t go in” message, a senior administration official said. “I don’t think it would have made any difference if she had,” the official said. “They knew the message was coming from the top.”

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And it is Georgia who was calling the shots. As is clear from the article that you quoted. Here is more:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/washington/13diplo.html?hp=&pagewanted=print

They were told not to go in. In they went. They asked for help. They got blankets and bandages.

I guess they figured its better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission... now we can not abandon them without losing face. Who was this dude that warned America to avoid foreign entanglements? I am voting Libertarian this year... 

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Jedem Das Seine.

It's like I said before, Americans are great to do business with. But they suck as friends.

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Jedem Das Seine.

Vladimir Putin's mastery checkmates the West

Russia has been biding its time, but its victory in Georgia has been brutal - and brilliant

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Good article :-) Let's see what happens next. Chess is indeed a slow game. And Georgians produced the world champion.

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Jedem Das Seine.

Orkster:

It's like I said before, Americans are great to do business with. But they suck as friends.

I think this is an illusion created by the fact that US has like 150 "friends"

About 5-10 that fit the real definition of "friend" are untouchable.  Even if they don't carry a capable military.

Georgia was only a "friend" in order to make Russia uncomfortable.  That's not worth any kind of sacrifice - even while disagreeing w the US policy, I can uderstand that. 

There are far easier services US can provide sparingly and in selected situations- equipment, intelligence, propaganda services in making assholes look like victims. etc. 

This is called "friendship" :)

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

Big secret to share: always liked Pat Buchanan.  For his brutal honesty.

 

Blowback From Bear-Baiting
by Patrick J. Buchanan
Posted 08/15/2008 ET

Mikheil Saakashvili's decision to use the opening of the Olympic Games to cover Georgia's invasion of its breakaway province of South Ossetia must rank in stupidity with Gamal Abdel-Nasser's decision to close the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships.

Nasser's blunder cost him the Sinai in the Six-Day War. Saakashvili's blunder probably means permanent loss of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

After shelling and attacking what he claims is his own country, killing scores of his own Ossetian citizens and sending tens of thousands fleeing into Russia, Saakashvili's army was whipped back into Georgia in 48 hours.

Vladimir Putin took the opportunity to kick the Georgian army out of Abkhazia, as well, to bomb Tbilisi and to seize Gori, birthplace of Stalin.

Reveling in his status as an intimate of George Bush, *** Cheney and John McCain, and America's lone democratic ally in the Caucasus, Saakashvili thought he could get away with a lightning coup and present the world with a fait accompli.

Mikheil did not reckon on the rage or resolve of the Bear.

American charges of Russian aggression ring hollow. Georgia started this fight -- Russia finished it. People who start wars don't get to decide how and when they end.

Russia's response was "disproportionate" and "brutal," wailed Bush.

True. But did we not authorize Israel to bomb Lebanon for 35 days in response to a border skirmish where several Israel soldiers were killed and two captured? Was that not many times more "disproportionate"?

Russia has invaded a sovereign country, railed Bush. But did not the United States bomb Serbia for 78 days and invade to force it to surrender a province, Kosovo, to which Serbia had a far greater historic claim than Georgia had to Abkhazia or South Ossetia, both of which prefer Moscow to Tbilisi?

Is not Western hypocrisy astonishing?

When the Soviet Union broke into 15 nations, we celebrated. When Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Kosovo broke from Serbia, we rejoiced. Why, then, the indignation when two provinces, whose peoples are ethnically separate from Georgians and who fought for their independence, should succeed in breaking away?

Are secessions and the dissolution of nations laudable only when they advance the agenda of the neocons, many of who viscerally detest Russia?

That Putin took the occasion of Saakashvili's provocative and stupid stunt to administer an extra dose of punishment is undeniable. But is not Russian anger understandable? For years the West has rubbed Russia's nose in her Cold War defeat and treated her like Weimar Germany.

When Moscow pulled the Red Army out of Europe, closed its bases in Cuba, dissolved the evil empire, let the Soviet Union break up into 15 states, and sought friendship and alliance with the United States, what did we do?

American carpetbaggers colluded with Muscovite Scalawags to loot the Russian nation. Breaking a pledge to Mikhail Gorbachev, we moved our military alliance into Eastern Europe, then onto Russia's doorstep. Six Warsaw Pact nations and three former republics of the Soviet Union are now NATO members.

Bush, Cheney and McCain have pushed to bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. This would require the United States to go to war with Russia over Stalin's birthplace and who has sovereignty over the Crimean Peninsula and Sebastopol, traditional home of Russia's Black Sea fleet.

When did these become U.S. vital interests, justifying war with Russia?

The United States unilaterally abrogated the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty because our technology was superior, then planned to site anti-missile defenses in Poland and the Czech Republic to defend against Iranian missiles, though Iran has no ICBMs and no atomic bombs. A Russian counter-offer to have us together put an anti-missile system in Azerbaijan was rejected out of hand.

We built a Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline from Azerbaijan through Georgia to Turkey to cut Russia out. Then we helped dump over regimes friendly to Moscow with democratic "revolutions" in Ukraine and Georgia, and tried to repeat it in Belarus.

Americans have many fine qualities. A capacity to see ourselves as others see us is not high among them.

Imagine a world that never knew Ronald Reagan, where Europe had opted out of the Cold War after Moscow installed those SS-20 missiles east of the Elbe. And Europe had abandoned NATO, told us to go home and become subservient to Moscow.

How would we have reacted if Moscow had brought Western Europe into the Warsaw Pact, established bases in Mexico and Panama, put missile defense radars and rockets in Cuba, and joined with China to build pipelines to transfer Mexican and Venezuelan oil to Pacific ports for shipment to Asia? And cut us out? If there were Russian and Chinese advisers training Latin American armies, the way we are in the former Soviet republics, how would we react? Would we look with bemusement on such Russian behavior?

For a decade, some of us have warned about the folly of getting into Russia's space and getting into Russia's face. The chickens of democratic imperialism have now come home to roost -- in Tbilisi.

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