well, we can just stay with capitalism - nothing is free... make Wal Mart and other big store pay for additional polution and othe enviromental impacts they produce (more trafic, big parkin lots increases severity of the floods and creats floods were there were none before), increase trafic (i.e. make them pay for road constructions) etc we can also inforce our trade laws and creat new ones, e.g. make companies that use cheap foreign labor to pay living wages (for the host country) and comply with US enviromental laws (even if the factory is abroad).. i.e. if company wants to sell in US they should be producing their products under US laws... plus creat a tax system that favors small retailers...

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Originally posted by Egor:

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Originally posted by Lionya: I think walmart gets too big of a blame. though i do agree that it's presense creates some problems but then maybe they should be better regulated. In the last 10 years i saw huge transformation in several business: Walmart took over the inexpensive retail market (10 years ago walmart, k-mart were on the same level, with target lacking a little - now it's walmart, then a huge hole, then target, then k-mart). I also saw best buy winning a tech store marker (10 years ago Circuit City was a leader all over the country - nwo they are losing money). Home Depot was the king, now Lowe's (in southeastern states at least) has taken a huge chunk of that business from them. Publix came to atlanta around 8-9 years ago and now it's on the par with Kroger in atlanta. It's the business model that makes it work.. Not just cheap labor..

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Lionya, agree with you completely. the question is... how do you regulate without being too communist? :)

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lyosha ****************** What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.

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lyosha
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What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.

Snake, most of these regulations (not all but most of them) are already in place.

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But a lot of those suggestions defeats the idea of capitalism. I agree that there are should be restrictions but come on - too much traffic tax??? Those 1000 people who are at walmart right now would be at 20 different small stores.. they still want to get the things they need... Also, in general small business can not survive with warehouse-like stores. that is why Costco (a lot of russian people are so fond of) is cheaper. I dont hear people complain about that... If you want to get into a cola-producing business would you start a lawsuit against Coca-Cola b/c they basically own the market??? PS and i wont get into pollution regulations, it's another subject..

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they have to be enforced.. :)

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Originally posted by TAP3AH: Snake, most of these regulations (not all but most of them) are already in place.

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lyosha ****************** What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.

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lyosha
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What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.

not really.. they are the bases of the capitalism - nothing is free.. wal mart increases trafic in one place - creat bottlenecks (because it is located in one place and not spread out. as small business would).. so they have to pay for the additional road constructions... no free lunches!

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Originally posted by Lionya: But a lot of those suggestions defeats the idea of capitalism. I agree that there are should be restrictions but come on - too much traffic tax??? Those 1000 people who are at walmart right now would be at 20 different small stores.. they still want to get the things they need... Also, in general small business can not survive with warehouse-like stores. that is why Costco (a lot of russian people are so fond of) is cheaper. I dont hear people complain about that... If you want to get into a cola-producing business would you start a lawsuit against Coca-Cola b/c they basically own the market??? PS and i wont get into pollution regulations, it's another subject..

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lyosha ****************** What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.

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lyosha
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What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.

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Originally posted by snake: not really.. they are the bases of the capitalism - nothing is free..

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who said that something was free?? I completely pro-taxation but taxing b/c they have a better business model than others is just ridicilous... Walmart was one of those small business stores in 1961. They tried harder, promoted better, sold cheaper and they exceled at what they do.. If it creates extra traffic make them widen the road at that point (i agree). But at the same time i know how badly traffic in alpharetta b/c of the small businesses... They build a sh*tload of small plazas with small businesses and it overloads the street much worse than 1 WALMART would (which in the essense would be able to replace most of them)!! and i dont see them widening the roads there.. where is the logic in that?

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I am not sure i am on board with the traffic parking lot thing :) here's a good start.. Make them accountable for medical benefits of their employees.. I am not sure what the existing law is, but is it normal to employ such a large number of people and use the government as your medical benefits provider? :)

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

Egor, i agree that some things (such as medical benefits paid by goverment) should be regulated but Big parking lot tax!?! :)

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Maybe I am off, but I can't recall any Wal*Mart being built where the roads are small. I believe its vice versa - they go to the areas that can handle their traffic. As for the medical benefits paid by government - other that this article in this topic, are there any additional facts supporting this claim?

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well, it is a known fact that big parking lots (i am talking about wal-mart size parking lots) creat floods and make existing floods worse.. it is a simple physics - asphalt does not absorb water as ground would.. all water during rain is disposed at once.. in the case of ground (or there is actually an type of cover that has the same quality) water is disposed gradually (it absorb it as a sponge and then slowly release it)... i lost my two cars due to this effect :)

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Originally posted by Egor: I am not sure i am on board with the traffic parking lot thing :) here's a good start.. Make them accountable for medical benefits of their employees.. I am not sure what the existing law is, but is it normal to employ such a large number of people and use the government as your medical benefits provider? :)

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lyosha ****************** What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.

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lyosha
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What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.

common now - so what, should we punish every business for large parking lots? Wal*Mart is not the only one - any large store would be a subject. Even shopping plazas with small businesses on them - they are also covering large areas with asfalt. The whole downtown Atlanta is asfalted - what should we do now? As for the Wal*Mart, here is an interesting resource for all of you (and although there are some complaints about the medical coverage, none of it mentions Government sponsorship): [url]http://www.walmartwatch.com/know/commentary.cfm?subsection_id=105[/url]

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oh, and here is another opposite point of view, which is, of course, subjective, however much more comprehensive: [url]http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3534[/url] Three Cheers for Wal-Mart by Edwin A. Locke (February 22, 2004) Summary: No one has the right to prevent businesses from expanding to new locations. Communities Should Welcome Wal-Mart--In the Name of Freedom and Justice [www.CapMag.com] How would you like to be penalized because you do your work too well--for example, for running your business so effectively that it attracts hoards of happy customers? Well, this is what is happening more and more frequently to Wal-Mart. Recently the West Covina, Calif., city council voted to deny the sale of land to developers who were going to build a Wal-Mart store on the site. The council was concerned that the Wal-Mart store would "threaten" other businesses and replace higher paying jobs in the area with lower-paying ones. The banning of Wal-Mart is being considered by the Los Angeles city council and has occurred in some other California cities as well as in other locations around the country. Wal-Mart is one of the most impressive success stories in the history of business. Founded some 50 years ago as a single five and dime store in a small Arkansas town, it has grown into a world-wide behemoth under the leadership of its brilliant founder, the late Sam Walton, and his able successors. It is the largest corporation in America in terms of sales, $245 billion. Wal-Mart has over 4,000 stores worldwide, employs 1.3 million people, and serves 100 million customers per week. It is quite true that Wal-Mart has been successful in outcompeting other stores which sell the same products, such as toys, clothing, and groceries. But how has it been able to do this? By discovering new ways of using computer systems and other technology to better manage its inventory and costs and reap the benefits of economy of scale. Wal-Mart is especially popular among low-income shoppers who cannot afford the prices of the more upscale stores. It has put other stores out of business, but that is the way capitalism works. The automobile replaced the horse and buggy. Sound motion picture replaced the silents. No one has a "right" to business success or a "right" to be protected from competitors through government intervention. One only has a right to try to compete through voluntary trade. In a free economy, companies that offer the best value for the dollar win and the losers invest their money elsewhere. It is also true that Wal-Mart pays lower wages than many unionized stores. But it must offer a market wage or risk its employees going elsewhere, and it deals with employees on a voluntary basis. Those who do not like its terms are free to do business elsewhere. This makes the company especially hated by "organized labor," such as the grocery unions. By coercively restricting the supply of labor, these unions, backed by government laws and regulations, have been able to extort wages and benefits far above those which would exist in a truly free labor market. In a free market, how many people doing relatively unskilled work would get $17-19 per hour plus full medical benefits? Unions, of course, have the right to organize and picket but not to benefit from government regulations which give them special favors. No one has the right to dictate what a company offers to pay others. There is only one morally proper way to keep Wal-Mart out of any community: don't patronize its stores. If Wal-Mart cannot make money in a given location, it will either not move there or will close the store. So far, however, it makes money everywhere it opens a store for one simple reason: customers want to shop there. The low prices Wal-Mart offers make people wealthier. They can buy a wide range of quality goods that they could not otherwise afford and they can use the money they save for other purposes. Local government should not be allowed to abuse their power by keeping out stores that consumers want to shop in. Nor, of course, should Wal-Mart be allowed to use eminent domain laws, as it is trying to do in several states, to force property owners to sell their land. But given that it refrains from using eminent domain, we should welcome every store that Wal-Mart builds. We should thank this great company for being so good at giving customers what they want that they make huge profits, which enables them to build more stores, hire more employees, give more profit opportunities to suppliers and make even more customers happy. Wal-Mart should not be feared but should be admired as an American ideal--a classic rags to riches story. It is the quintessential example of an innovator left free to function. Only in a country where individual rights--at least what's left of them--including the right to earn a profit, are recognized, could a company like Wal-Mart arise and prosper. Trying to stop Wal-Mart is not only morally wrong, it is un-American. Copyright (c) 2004 Ayn Rand(r) Institute. All rights reserved.

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Originally posted by ShEV: common now - so what, should we punish every business for large parking lots? Wal*Mart is not the only one - any large store would be a subject. Even shopping plazas with small businesses on them - they are also covering large areas with asfalt. The whole downtown Atlanta is asfalted - what should we do now?

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my point above !! :) and lesha, you lost your car in the middle of the city.. it is all asphalt there... not walmart..

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yeah.. and big parking lots do that :) when you put a lot of business in one place you get the same effect (alpharetta)... so my point is that cities need to take care of urban planning... it is done horrible in atlanta metro(i am sure in other places too)... cities can (and should) restrict the size of the retailers inside the city limits... in a urban enviromnt business should spread out.. so we don't get huge parking lots and traffic bottle necks...

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Originally posted by Lionya:

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Originally posted by ShEV: common now - so what, should we punish every business for large parking lots? Wal*Mart is not the only one - any large store would be a subject. Even shopping plazas with small businesses on them - they are also covering large areas with asfalt. The whole downtown Atlanta is asfalted - what should we do now?

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my point above !! :) and lesha, you lost your car in the middle of the city.. it is all asphalt there... not walmart..

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lyosha ****************** What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.

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lyosha
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What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.

one of the bad things about walmart that was mentioned above is that walmart drives away small businesses... what i am trying to get to is that it doesnt matter if it's a lot of small businesses or one walmart.. it will be a large parking lot for both.. the urbanization problem shouldnt be in this topic... i dont believe walmart creates that problem and therefore shouldnt be penalized for that...

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